Low End Mac Email Lists

LEM Swap List

An email list for Mac traders

list begun 2000.09.03, moved to Google Groups 2006.03

Updated to specifically prohibit sale of Windows 2007.08

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Browse Archives at groups.google.com

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LEM Swap is Low End Mac's email list for buying and selling Mac OS computers and Mac-related goods. PCs are expressly forbidden, as are most *nix boxen except for NeXT hardware. Palms and PDAs are acceptable as long as they can be used with Macs.

This is not a discussion list.

Apple II, Lisa, and Newton owners are asked to use Apple2list, LisaList, and NewtonList, respectively, when listing Apple II and Lisa items for sale. Those in Canada, the UK, and down under may prefer to post their items on the Mac Canada, Mac UK, or Outback Mac list.

Be sure to read our guide to netiquette before posting to the list.

WARNING: Users are advised that Microsoft Outlook Express comes equipped with a junk email (spam) filter which, when turned on, may relegate legitimate emails, such as electronic greeting cards from family or friends to the junk mail folder, and dispose of them according to the user's preferences.

From Microsoft: Microsoft is aware that Outlook Express 5 Macintosh Edition's Junk Mail Filter may identify as suspicious some email messages that a user may want to read. Microsoft is working closely with industry experts to improve the Junk Mail Filter to help people better separate wanted and unwanted messages. For example, we recently learned that the subscription-based TidBITS newsletter was identified as suspicious. To assure that any wanted email, such as the TidBITS newsletter, is not marked by the Junk Mail Filter, please use any one of the following quick and easy solutions:

How can I subscribe to LEM Swap?

There are several ways to receive LEM Swap:

You can subscribe via email or online. Note that digest mode does not include the email addresses of posters to protect their privacy and help prevent spam. If you want to be able to reply via email, you must use "email" (individual message) mode. The other option is to receive the digest and then log in to http://groups.google.com/group/lemswap, locate the message, and reply to the sender.

Never reply to the list. LEM Swap is not a discussion list.

To subscribe via email, send an email to lemswap-subscribe@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe, send an email to lemswap-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. You must register online if you wish to set your subscription to digest mode, abridged messages, or no email.

To subscribe online, go to http://groups.google.com/group/lemswap and click on Join this group. You do not need a Google/Gmail account to participate. If you don't have a Gmail address or wish to use another address, click on the Sign up now link.

Although you will begin receiving messages from the list right away, Google Groups will not accept an email posting until you confirm your email address. Also, in an attempt to keep spam off the list, the first messages from new members will be checked by a list mananger before they are posted.

You will receive a confirmation email from Google Groups at your subscribed address. You must click on the link in this message to verify your email address. That will generate a second email from Google Groups, and it's only after responding to the second message that you'll be able to post to the list. Watch out - one or both of these may be marked a junk mail by your spam filter.

Use http://groups.google.com/group/lemswap to change your subscription mode or remove yourself from the list.

If you use an RSS reader, you can subscribe to the list's RSS feed at http://groups.google.com/group/lemswap/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml

To help prevent spammers from using the list, and to keep others from subscribing your address without your approval, you will receive a note from the list server asking you to confirm your subscription. Simply reply as instructed and your subscription will be active.

Please report any subscription problems to the list mom at .

How do I switch to digest or unsubscribe?

First, go to the list's Google Groups page and log in with your subscribed email address and password. (If you subscribed via email, you will have to generate a password.)

Click on "Unsubscribe or change membership" in the yellow bar above the postings. On the next page you'll be able to select email (single messages), digest email (multiple messages combined into one email), abridged email (abridged digest), or no email. There's also an unsubscribe button for removing yourself from the list.

You can also change your nickname on this page.

How do I change my nickname in Google Groups?

Google's default behavior is to use your email address as your nickname when you join a list. We've brought this to Google's attention, but if your nickname is also your email address, we strongly suggest you change it.

Anyhow, if you want to change your nickname (whether it's your email address or not), it's a pretty simple process.

  1. Log into Google Groups.
  2. In the My Groups window, click the "Manage my subscriptions" link.
  3. On the My Subscriptions page, you can easily change the nickname for all the lists you're subscribed to.

What about anti-spam services?

We take whatever steps we can to keep spam off our lists, but short of moderating every message on every list, we can't prevent some from occasionally reaching the list. Whatever filtering you do with your email software and your email service is up to you.

That said, we take a dim view of anti-spam services such as Spam Arrest and Cashette that require the sender of a message to respond to a message from the anti-spam service (a "challenge and response" system) before allowing the recipient to receive the posting. Such a service inconveniences anyone who posts to the list and is unnecessary.

These are all closed lists, so there should be virtually no spam. Only those who have requested a subscription and confirmed their subscription are allowed to post. Please don't inconvenience our members by asking them to jump through hoops to keep your mailbox spam free.

Any subscriber using this kind of anti-spam service for list messages will receive one warning and be temporarily blocked from posting to the list. If the situation is not resolved quickly, the subscriber will be banned. The burden should be on the spammers, not innocent list members.

Note that this applies specifically to list messages, not to individual correspondence with list members.

How can I distinguish messages from LEM Swap from all the other email I get?

Messages from this list will include "lemswap" in their footer, and messages from the Swap Feedback list (see below) will include "swap-feedback" in their footer.

How should items be listed?

The subject line should make it clear whether you want to buy, sell, swap, or give away something - and what it is you're offering or looking for. Please begin for sale subject lines with FS, want to buy with WTB, trades with SWAP, and use FREE for things you're giving away. Follow this by a subject line that make it pretty clear what kind of thing(s) the posting is about.

Who oversees the LEM Swap List?

Dan Knight of Low End Mac http://lowendmac.commanages LEM Swap List, which was begun on September 3, 2000. Beverly Woods, Kyle Hansen, Paul Stamsen, and Amber Robey are the list nannies (assistant list managers).

How does an email list work?

Anyone who has access to Internet email may subscribe to LEM Swap List using the subscription address lemswap-subscribe@googlegroups.com to join the list. Subscribers will receive a copy of every message others have sent to the posting address, lemswap@googlegroups.com. If you wish to reply to the list or post a new message to the list, send email to lemswap@googlegroups.com.

This list is set up so selecting "Reply" in your emailer will send a message to the original sender - this is the opposite of our other lists. If you wish to respond to the list, be sure to address your message to lemswap@googlegroups.com - but remember that this is not a discussion list. There should be no need to copy messages to both the author and the list, since the author is a member of the list.

How do I reply to the sender instead of to the list when using the Google Groups interface?

There are two ways to do this. If you select "Reply with quote", you will have the option of selecting the list or the original poster as the recipient. The second option is to click on "show options" below the date of the message. Here you will see "Reply to author" as one of your options.

How do I know if it's okay to post an item on the list?

As it says at the top of the page, "LEM Swap List is the Low End Mac list for buying and selling Mac OS computers and Mac-related goods. PCs are expressly forbidden, as are most *nix boxen except for NeXT hardware. Palms and PDAs are acceptable as long as they can be used with Macs."

Computers designed to run the Mac OS, printers and modems that work with Macs, networking equipment (hubs, cable or DSL modems, base stations, etc.), mice and keyboards, Mac-compatible webcams, flash drives, and hard drives are just some of the things that fit into the "Mac and Mac-related" category.

Windows PCs and software, cell phones, consumer electronics, digital cameras, and offers of free Gmail accounts are examples of things that do not qualify as Mac-related goods. (Rule of thumb: If it works just fine without a computer, like a digicam or cell phone, it's not a computer peripheral and not allowed. If it's dependent on a computer, such as a printer or synching your PDA, it's a peripheral and is allowed.)

Even though Intel-based Macs can run Windows, because of licensing issues (OEM vs. retail copies, Genuine Advantage problems, limits on how many times or on how many machines it can be installed, and licenses that prohibit use of some versions in a virtualized environment), we do not allow the sale of Windows.

What rules do you have about posting items for sale?

When buying and selling

Tracking and Insurance

To protect the buyer, all sales over $100 in value (US, or equivalent in local currency) must be shipped insured if this is at all possible.

Whenever possible, sales over US$25 (or equivalent) should be shipped with tracking numbers so both the buyer and seller can track the shipment.

The Swap Feedback List

We have created a new email list separate from LEM Swap specifically for feedback on Swap List transactions. We ask that you provide feedback - positive or negative - on each transaction. This will help others identify buyers and sellers who do not operate in good faith. As with LEM Swap, this is an unmoderated closed list.

Google Groups
Subscribe to Swap Feedback
Email:
Visit this group

You can join the Swap Feedback list online at http://groups.google.com/group/swap-feedback or emailing swap-feedback-subscribe@googlegroups.com. This is a separate list that requires a separate subscription. It works like the Swap List except that replies go to the list, not the original poster.

If you use an RSS reader, you can subscribe to the list's RSS feed at http://groups.google.com/group/swap-feedback/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml

What is netiquette?

There are informal rules of the Internet ("netiquette") to help people use proper etiquette when communicating online. For more on list netiquette, click here.

Because LEM Swap is a list for buying and selling, do not use it to promote sales through auction sites.

The list is expected to handle things responsibly, and members are expected to behave in such a way that the list requires minimal administrative intervention. When action is required, the list mom and nannies will act in accordance with our Rules of List Management. This page also defines terms (ban, block, flame, troll, etc.) and lists the responsibilities of subscribers.

Who is on the list?

That would be telling.

Because the list software requires an email address but not a name, I may not have names of all subscribers on the list. We currently have over over 2,600 subscriptions, and people don't need to subscribe to read the list online.

How can I get a copy of the email addresses on the list?

You can't. To communicate with the list, send messages to the posting address lemswap@googlegroups.com. We have deliberately blocked access to the subscriber list to prevent addresses from being harvested by spammers.

What topics may be discussed?

LEM-Swap is not a discussion list; it is a forum for buying and selling. Except in rare cases, your reply should be directed to the person making a posting to the list, not to the list itself.

LEM Swap List is an unmoderated closed list. Unmoderated means messages are sent to the list without prior knowledge of the list mom; closed means only subscribers may post. The list is closed to help fight spam, and first postings from new members must be checked by a list manager before they are sent to the list, a step made necessary by list spammers.

List managers are authorized to remove the following types of messages from the list archive: spam, test messages, unsubscribe postings, and items prohibited from the list. Content of each message is the responsibility of the person posting it.

Because the list is closed, you will only be able to post from a subscribed address.

What topics may not be discussed?

The list is short:

LEM Swap is not a discussion list, so discussion is prohibited unless the List Mom initiates it.

What tone is expected in the discussion and who will facilitate this?

This has become a kind and helpful community. Since Mac users range from beginners to gurus, please be tolerant of "dumb" questions, and please don't bait or snipe at each other.

The list is expected to handle things responsibly, and members are expected to behave in such a way that the list requires minimal administrative intervention. When action is required, the list mom and nannies will act in accordance with our Rules of List Management. This page also defines terms (ban, block, flame, troll, etc.) and lists the responsibilities of subscribers.

Please report any major breach of netiquette to the .

Is there an accessible archive of messages sent to the list?

Yes, it's available at http://groups.google.com/group/lemswap.

What other Internet resources are available for buying and selling Macs?

There are several auction sites and used Mac dealers.

I subscribed, but get no messages. What's up?

Google Groups can be set so that "no email" is the default option, and all of our lists were inadvertently set that way. We have since set them so subscribers will receive individual emails as the default. My apologies.

It's possible (but not easy) to subscribe with an incorrect email address. The list server checks all bounced messages to determine why they bounced. If the address is invalid, it is removed from the subscriber list. If the problem is temporary, like a full mailbox, the server temporarily suspends your subscription. If this results in still more bounces, the server will eventually remove the address.

If you are subscribing from a free email account, note that some of these services are very busy and messages may bounce. This can even happen with commercial services, and Apple's .mac seems to experience this frequently. If this persists, it could lead to your name being removed the list. We recommend you to use an ISP account for the list instead of a free email service.

We take a hard line against unsolicited commercial email. To prevent spam, the list is closed and certain domains are blocked by the mail server and the list server.

I sent a reply to the list, but I never received a copy.

Google Groups sometimes makes the assumption that you know what you've posted, so you don't need to receive a copy; there's no way we can change that if it happens. However, your posting will show up online and you will see it if you receive the list in digest form.

I subscribed, but I can't post.

Google Groups requires you to confirm and verify your subscription before you can post. And, like most email lists, their software may not me@recognize mail.domain.com and me@domain.com as being the same. Make sure the From: and Reply-to: address in your email client match the address you used to join the list.

I have had reports of people who are subscribed and unable to post. If this happens to you, please forward your message to so we can investigate. We're still learning how Google Groups works, and Google Groups remains in beta.

I sent a message, but it never appeared. Why?

There are several possible reasons a posting can bounce.

Do you have any policies about selling products or services on the list?

I've learned that some of the experts on any list gain their expertise professionally. For instance, I was the information systems manager for an 85 Mac network. For those who make a living selling equipment or services, we have the following guidelines.

  1. List members may mention the availability of commercial services or products on the list, but no prices. (Individuals may list personal equipment with prices.)
  2. All correspondence regarding services or products should be conducted privately, not on the list.
  3. Neither the publisher nor the list mom makes any claim regarding services or products offered by members of the list.

To simplify things, we set up the Low End Mac Swap List as a place for list members to buy, sell, and trade Mac-related goods.

For the most part, items for sale should be listed on the Swap List, which has over 2,200 subscriptions. We make exceptions for the international lists (Australia, Canada, UK), the non-Mac lists (Apple II, Lisa, Newton), and items that would only be of interest to members of a specific list. Keep in mind that the swap list is generally the best place to list items for sale, since it has more subscribers than any of the other lists.

That said, the swap list is a very busy list, and we don't think anyone should have to subscribe just so they can sell a personal item or system, so we do allow posting of items for sale on all lists - but only when they are specifically related to that list. That means no posting Quadras for sale on the iMac list, for instance.

To avoid this list turning into a swapfest, we restrict subscribers to one such postings per calendar year

We discourage posting links to your eBay and other online auctions, and such postings are explicitly forbidden on the swap list. We also discourage links to other items available through online auctions unless they are unusual and of special interest to that list, such as the Piña tomes covering vintage Macs.

Do you block any specific domains?

We are firmly committed to the free exchange of information on our lists. Some mail servers censor incoming email - orvis.com in particular. We don't take preemptive action against subscribers using such mail servers, but we do reserve the right to unceremoniously unsubscribe them without advance notice when their content filters "quarantine" list messages.

If you receive a "quarantine" message, please forward it to the so we can deal with it. Thanks!

Dan Knight,

How to Email the List Mom

Please email me at Gmail -

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